full article and comments:
http://www.theecologist.org/Interviews/739796/jonathan_safran_foer_
environmentalists_who_eat_meat_have_a_blindspot.html
Tom Levitt
24th January, 2011
Factory farming depends on our ignorance but the world needs to move away from
eating meat, US author Jonathan Safran Foer tells Tom Levitt
Tom Levitt: Do humans have genuine need for meat?
Jonathan Safran Foer: Humans have a desire for meat no doubt about it. They also
have a desire for sex but it doesn't mean that we don't contain our cravings.
Humans are great at containing cravings; we do it all the time whether it's not
stealing something from a store even if we'd prefer it for free, not punching
someone who pisses us off even if our animal instinct want to do that. This
ability to say no is precisely what distinguishes us from the other animals and
is the culmination of our evolution. The fact that the people have been doing it
for a long time, that we crave it or that our bodies seem to have evolved to eat
it, doesn't mean all that much to me. What excites me is the ability to think it
through, come to terms with the consequences and to make a choice. Sometimes
choosing not to do something that feels good can be a fuller expression of our
humanity.
TL: Can you see a situation in which you would eat meat again?
JSF: I don't think I would. I don't need to. On a desert island I might -
I might even eat a human. But this is the wrong argument to have because you end
up ignoring what is right in front of us which is that 50 billion animals are
factory-farmed every year. It's the number one cause of global warming, it's
responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than everything else put together
and the UN has said it's one of the top two or three causes of every single
environmental problem on the planet. It's making our antibiotics less effective
(we give seven times the amount of antibiotics to healthy animals as we do to
sick humans) and is doing things to animals that anyone would find repulsive. So
lets talk about this, the thing that is right in front of us, rather than a
hypothetical situation that might happen 50 years from now.
TL: Is it possible to be an environmentalist and a meat-eater?
JSF: Sure, you could be an honest person who tells lies all the time but I don't
think we need to get into whether such a thing disqualifies you or not but what
we can say is this: We know it is indisputably the number one cause of global
warming. So what does it mean exactly to be an environmentalist on a daily basis
if you are not thinking about the number one cause of global warming or one of
the top two or three causes of all other environmental problems? Does it mean
you are necessarily someone who doesn't care about the environment? Obviously
not, but it might mean you have a blind spot for something big. I should add
that Greenpeace doesn't serve meat at any of their functions anymore. Oceana is
having a big internal debate about whether they should serve meat and fish at
its functions too.
TL: You say factory-farming is like pornography - 'its very hard to define but
you know it when you see it'. Can you explain?
JSF: It's not any one particular set of technologies, it's more like this
mindset that nature is an obstacle to be overcome. Animals require this much
room in nature so maybe we can give them less. Nature suggests animals should
lay this many eggs so maybe we can get them to lay twice as many. Nature
suggests animals need this much food so maybe we can give them half as much.
It's a kind of perversion of nature. Small farmers take nature as a guide and
follow its cues. We almost don't need a term for it because it is so dominant;
there is almost nothing left to compare it to.
TL: Has the farmer been pushed aside by the increasing dominance of factory
farming?
JSF: Yes, quite literally. I hear again and again that farmers didn't become
farmers to hurt animals or to trash the environment. It's actually an incredibly
rewarding way of life and used to very diverse. Now its just one kind of crop or
animal. It used to require lots of different knowledge and there was something
joyful about seeing the cycle of life repeat itself and getting to know the
animals as individuals and caring for them and then giving them a painless death
or as painless as one could hope for. And all of that has been inverted with
factory farming. It's all automated now for starters - with chicken farming they
put them in the sheds and come back in 45 days and send them to slaughter. Other
than that there is no human intervention.
Tom Levitt: Do humans have genuine need for meat?
Jonathan Safran Foer: Humans have a desire for meat no doubt about it. They also
have a desire for sex but it doesn't mean that we don't contain our cravings.
Humans are great at containing cravings; we do it all the time whether it's not
stealing something from a store even if we'd prefer it for free, not punching
someone who pisses us off even if our animal instinct want to do that. This
ability to say no is precisely what distinguishes us from the other animals and
is the culmination of our evolution. The fact that the people have been doing it
for a long time, that we crave it or that our bodies seem to have evolved to eat
it, doesn't mean all that much to me. What excites me is the ability to think it
through, come to terms with the consequences and to make a choice. Sometimes
choosing not to do something that feels good can be a fuller expression of our
humanity.
TL: Can you see a situation in which you would eat meat again?
JSF: I don't think I would. I don't need to. On a desert island I might -
I might even eat a human. But this is the wrong argument to have because you end
up ignoring what is right in front of us which is that 50 billion animals are
factory-farmed every year. It's the number one cause of global warming, it's
responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than everything else put together
and the UN has said it's one of the top two or three causes of every single
environmental problem on the planet. It's making our antibiotics less effective
(we give seven times the amount of antibiotics to healthy animals as we do to
sick humans) and is doing things to animals that anyone would find repulsive. So
lets talk about this, the thing that is right in front of us, rather than a
hypothetical situation that might happen 50 years from now.
TL: Is it possible to be an environmentalist and a meat-eater?
JSF: Sure, you could be an honest person who tells lies all the time but I don't
think we need to get into whether such a thing disqualifies you or not but what
we can say is this: We know it is indisputably the number one cause of global
warming. So what does it mean exactly to be an environmentalist on a daily basis
if you are not thinking about the number one cause of global warming or one of
the top two or three causes of all other environmental problems? Does it mean
you are necessarily someone who doesn't care about the environment? Obviously
not, but it might mean you have a blind spot for something big. I should add
that Greenpeace doesn't serve meat at any of their functions anymore. Oceana is
having a big internal debate about whether they should serve meat and fish at
its functions too.
TL: You say factory-farming is like pornography - 'its very hard to define but
you know it when you see it'. Can you explain?
JSF: It's not any one particular set of technologies, it's more like this
mindset that nature is an obstacle to be overcome. Animals require this much
room in nature so maybe we can give them less. Nature suggests animals should
lay this many eggs so maybe we can get them to lay twice as many. Nature
suggests animals need this much food so maybe we can give them half as much.
It's a kind of perversion of nature. Small farmers take nature as a guide and
follow its cues. We almost don't need a term for it because it is so dominant;
there is almost nothing left to compare it to.
TL: Has the farmer been pushed aside by the increasing dominance of factory
farming?
JSF: Yes, quite literally. I hear again and again that farmers didn't become
farmers to hurt animals or to trash the environment. It's actually an incredibly
rewarding way of life and used to very diverse. Now its just one kind of crop or
animal. It used to require lots of different knowledge and there was something
joyful about seeing the cycle of life repeat itself and getting to know the
animals as individuals and caring for them and then giving them a painless death
or as painless as one could hope for. And all of that has been inverted with
factory farming. It's all automated now for starters - with chicken farming they
put them in the sheds and come back in 45 days and send them to slaughter. Other
than that there is no human intervention.
TL: Does the consumer understand what farming is about today?
JSF: They would if we had some laws about truth and labelling. So long as we
have pictures on our packages of meat with barns, grass and fences we will
continue to think it is really like that. We have labels on cigarettes saying
you will die I don't know why we can't have labels on packages of meat saying
these 60,000 of these animals were raised in a windowless shed and fed
antibiotics from birth to death. It's the truth so why shouldn't we have access
to it?
TL: Why did KFC get so much criticism in your book?
JSF: They are just so terrible. Neither Tyson, Smithfield or KFC responded which
suggests that they think the more people talk and think about these things, the
less inclined they will be to eat meat. People don't learn more about factory
farming and want eat more. It's an industry that literally depends on our
ignorance and silence. My impression is that its enormously powerful and they
spend tens of millions of dollars on lobbying every year. I mean I got sent an
email saying 'stand up to the well-funded vegetarian lobby' and support your
local farmer. Well I did a bit of research and together, all the vegetarian
advocate groups spend about $600,000 a year and have no full-time employers
compared to the meat industry's numerous lobbyists. There is no vegetarian lobby
but meat industry claims there is one in an attempt to create a certain type of
story and marginalise that position. They try to make it seem as if caring about
this makes you a weirdo or hippy. Small farmers like animals and the environment
and want to protect both of them.
TL: What are your views on organic?
JSF: If you have a choice, it's definitely better than factory-farmed meat but
it's not what people think it is either. It doesn't necessarily have anything to
do with the way animals are treated and it has nothing to do with the genetics
of the animal. I think a lot of people look at organic as a silver bullet - if i
just buy this I will have done my bit - unfortunately it's not what most people
think it is.
TL: Can you be as
Michael Pollen suggests an ethical carnivore?
JSF: It's impossibly difficult to be an environmentally-sensitive carnivore. It
takes so much time and energy to figure out where the meat really comes from, by
what process it is brought to your table, how far away the farm is, what they do
with their waste. There are just so many questions.
Michael Pollen is the world's greatest advocate of ethical eating and yet he
still regularly eats factory farmed meat. Doing what he argues against. I am not
someone who believes in purity. My only point is that I would like to do what I
believe in and I would find it very difficult to do that by eating meat. There
is no alternative to some flying but it is simple not to eat meat. There is
nothing necessary about it. We only eat meat because we like the taste and we
should stop pretending it is about anything else.
TL: What about the dairy sector; do you still consume dairy and eggs?
JSF: In terms of animal cruelty it would be so much better to eat a burger than
to drink milk. It's definitely the right thing to do but I just find it hard to
give it up. I buy all of our milk and eggs back at home from a farmers market
but the arguments are exactly the same. We have to get away from the expectation
of perfection because it really intimidates people who would otherwise make an
effort. People use the fear of hypocrisy to justify total inaction. I wish I
weren't as hypocritical as I am but I think that's just part of what it means to
be a person.
Jonathan's book 'Eating Animals' is published by Penguin Books
